PEEEEEEEGLET TOCKS!

Looks like poor mama’s passed out!

CCJ- I just tried to leave a comment twice on your personal site. I’m not that computer literate… anyway, I’m a fellow vegan who totally agrees with you and would love to converse with you. My e-mail is allywag67@aol.com and my band’s website is http://www.thewagband.com. I hope to hear from you!
-Alicia
allywag67@aol.com
http://www.thewagband.com

Lymerae, you certainly sound like you’ve thought about that, and I think that’s commendable.
The same cannot be true of everyone. Like I said, I think it would be a consistent position only to buy meat from ethical farmers etc.

But I don’t think it’s as hard as you might think to avoid meat when you go out etc. It doesn’t have to be at a moment’s notice, and it doesn’t have to be complicated. There are loads more different kinds of grains and beans and legumes and vegetables than there are different kinds of animals (unless you count beetles, I guess… which you probably don’t eat). And it has never been easier to be vegetarian at restaurants.

I have avoided including personal detail because it isn’t that relevant, but I’ll say this. I became a vegetarian at the age of ten, and had no problems eating at friend’s houses etc. Of course I was lucky that my mom was supportive, but in general it was not that hard at all. People respect decisions that you have strong reasons for (having a long list of vegetables you “don’t like” is then obviously not ok). And I put off going vegan for a very long time because I thought it would be hard, phasing things out over a couple of years, but I made the switch a couple of months ago and it’s been great. I feel physically good and morally aligned, if that makes sense, and it hasn’t been anywhere near as difficult as I expected.

My aim is not to be antagonistic here, or to “win” an argument. I am continuing to post because I think it might be helpful for people who do think about where their food comes from. If you decide to try having a veg day a week, or just want to try a couple of new recipes, I’d be happy to pass some on.

Lastly, you made the “one person can’t make a difference” argument at some point. I have big issues with this idea, which extends to all kinds of things. First, I don’t think it’s true, since small differences add up. That’s why I still vote, and recycle, and close dripping taps. Secondly, it’s a horribly fatalist attitude. It would have defeated the suffragettes, and civil rights activists, and countless other people. I understand that you may have priorities other than animal rights, but to apply that reasoning to any of them is to do yourself a disservice I think. Social change has to happen somehow, and normally requires a bottom-up shift as well as top-down changes.

Again, not trying to sound preachy. I often get depressed about my efforts for various causes, but I continue because I think one person can have an effect…

Ok, I’m going to shut up now. I’m linking my blog so anyone who wants to can contact me through that and we can stop bothering CO-ers.

BTW, Natalie, that cake looks amazing!!! Consider yourself bookmarked!

jjr and ccj: The one thing that bothers me is that you talk about not understanding why anyone *would* eat meat (or at least meat from factory farms) as if it was a thoughtless, cruel decision to do so and it was as easy as a moment’s twinge of good conscious to switch over to an alternative diet. But it’s not. Not everyone has the time resources to plan a healthy vegetarian diet, or the ability to travel farther and pay more for meat that comes from a humane farm. It’s hard, really hard, to take that approach in our society, especially if you ever want to eat out or be able to share a meal at a friend’s house. It takes a huge commitment. And I admire you two for doing it! But it’s not like everyone can jump on board with that commitment at a moment’s notice, even if they do believe it’s inhumane to eat meat–and I don’t think it’s fair to insinuate that they don’t care about animals just because they can’t.

Personally, I don’t think eating meat from animals that were well-treated in their lifetimes and slaughtered with the least suffering possible is inhumane in any way.

Geez. It’s been a long thread…

Hon Glad, I think ccj meant that it doesn’t matter if farmed animals didn’t exist if there were no facilities that breed/slaughter them–because we have no moral responsibilities toward as yet non-existent critters. (Paraphrasing Peter Singer, these animals are not waiting somewhere in limbo to be born and we’re depriving them of the opportunity.) We are only obligated to treat those animals that do exist with care and compassion.

lymerae, I was not comparing eating meat to sexual assault. I meant to point out that one of the reasons in favor of eating meat cited earlier–because it tastes good–just seems super self-indulgent and morally suspect along the same lines as acting on other types of urges regardless of how they affect others. (If someone is sincerely convinced they need to eat meat to survive, that to me is a different story–even though I personally definitely don’t agree with this stance.)

I don’t mean to anger or offend anyone, though.

ccj: I would seriously love to never support factory farms, and to purchase only meat from free-range farms with heritage breeds and humane practices. I do try to shop at our local “hippy” grocery store as much as possible to purchase products like that. But as a college student with extremely limited money and time, it’s not always possible–and frankly, it’s not *highest* on my priority list. If it was something I was really passionate about, I would be out campaigning to try to change things on a large scale, because one consumer, in the long run, is not going to effect that much change.

Hon Glad: I think you understood my point (that just because they’ve been bred for the purpose doesn’t make it ok to eat them). I agree that they would not exist otherwise and not all over the world, but I’m not sure why you mention that?

Lymerae: I’m not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I’m just looking for consistency: if you love animals, why support factory farms? This really puzzles me, every day.

ccj:
I was referring more to the comment from jjr apparently comparing eating meat to sexual assault–sorry, that angered me.

Personally, I eat almost no red meat–the only time I eat it is if it’s served to me by a host/hostess–and very little of any other meat. I love tofu and vegetarian Indian cuisine. But within my moral system, it’s not immoral to eat meat, and I guess I resent attempts to make me feel guilty for that.

ccj.your take on my comment gets grabs the wrong end of the stick. My impications is not the fact that they are bred by man, means its ok to slaughter them, it is that they would not exist in many countries as they are imported nor would they exit in there current forms.

ccj. splain yourself.